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Set by lizmat on 25 August 2021.
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Geth ecosystem: 19091679db | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | META.list
Remove Grammar::Common / MIME::Types

They now live in the zef ecosystem		 09:05
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Geth ecosystem: 78afa77ef4 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | META.list
Freeze XML::Entity::HTML

While it is being moved to the zef ecosystem		 13:13
ecosystem: b9a9cac12a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | META.list
Freeze CoreHackers::Sourcery

While it is being moved to the zef ecosystem
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japhb lizmat++ # Continued massive ecosystem work 14:58
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Anton Antonov @lizmat I really like `Test::Output` -- saved me hours of trying to figure out stuff... 17:19
lizmat Glad you like it, but it was Zoffix who made that :-) 17:21
Anton Antonov Ah, ok -- good to know. (I did not read carefully the GitHub page.) 17:22
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@lizmat Let me try again. I like `Random::Names` -- I noticed it a few months ago, but forgot about it. 17:27
lizmat yeah, that's one of mine :-) 17:28
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Anton Antonov In `Data::Generators` I have `random-pet-name` with ≈21K pet names from pet licenses submitted in Seattle, WA, USA. 17:33
Nemokosch so the gather statement prefix is eager apparently? 17:39
Anton Antonov @lizmat is possible to get all adjectives and surnames in `Random::Names` is some "standard" method or function in that pacakge? 17:40
@lizmat is possible to get all adjectives and surnames in `Random::Names` is some "standard" method or function in that package?
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@lizmat Is it possible to get all adjectives and surnames in `Random::Names` with some "standard" method or function in that package? 17:41
lizmat not currently
drakonis blogs.perl.org/users/psc/2022/05/wh...erl-7.html huh 17:42
Anton Antonov Ok, thanks! 17:43
lizmat Anton Antonov: give me a few minutes :-) 17:44
Anton Antonov ⏳ 17:46
lizmat updating the docs takes the longest 17:50
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Anton Antonov yeah, of course... 17:58
lizmat 0.0.6 uploaded 18:07
dinner&
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El_Che hey liz 18:10
jdv drakonis: fun 18:14
drakonis indeed.
jdv not as fun as when p7 was announced though 18:16
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drakonis incredible how it turned out to be hot air 18:21
nothing changed and only served to confuse people 18:23
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El_Che whut? 18:28
jdv i wouldnt characterize it quite like that. 18:32
frustration boiled over whuch resulted in a bit of a temp mess but long term betterness. maybe:) 18:33
life is messy. no surprises there.
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Anton Antonov @lizmat -- cool, thanks! 19:06
lizmat raku.land/zef:lizmat/Random::Names?v=0.0.6 :-) 19:07
Nemokosch I'm afraid the Perl community learned the wrong lesson 19:25
El_Che I think they finally have a good momentum 19:40
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drakonis they decidedly need it 20:02
as does raku too
Nemokosch Fair enough but whenever I hear about the stuff they are trying to establish (signatures, try-catch), I do feel it was absolutely justified to rework this language and unlike Raku, I'm not sure how they can make it seem... modern 20:25
drakonis they cannot 20:29
as that would break backwards compatibility 20:30
its too late in perl's life to even manage that without breaking all existing code 20:34
the biggest change that would happen in years to perl would be the introduction of a object system mostly cribbed from raku 20:36
and adapted to perl's limitations
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Nemokosch but then why not just accept that Perl is literally finished? 20:42
It will be better than any shell implementation out there, for a long time 20:43
and that's about it
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rjbs What does "literally finished" mean? 22:55
Voldenet some of my ancient perl scripts written 10+ years ago still work, so perl is alive… enough ;) 23:00
Nemokosch Like why pretend there is any reason or opportunity to develop Perl "further" 23:02
it has arrived to the destination a long time ago
Voldenet well, you can't tell people developing perl5 to stop 23:07
drakonis perl 5 has a technical barrier it cannot surpass 23:08
rjbs Perl 5.36 will be slightly more pleasant to work in than 5.34. That seems like enough to me. 23:09
Nemokosch Perhaps I can't but if we think about why I can't 23:10
it's not necessarily because I'm wrong
drakonis it has reached the end of its evolutionary cycle within the current implementation
Nemokosch And you know, from what I see, the improvements don't necessarily target newcomers 23:11
leont Arguably that is true of almost all languages, really
tellable6 2020-08-13T06:45:00Z #raku-dev <JJMerelo> .tell leont I still need you to accept the invitation so that the article carries your byline (and you can edit it if necessary)
leont Wow, that is an old message, have I really been inactive that long?
drakonis eh
that depends
Nemokosch They target long-time users with the promise of making life always a bit easier 23:12
rjbs yes.
leont Yeah, that seems like a fair assessment 23:13
drakonis its entirely reliant on whether the language is designed on the ability to evolve without spending incalculable manpower to do so
Nemokosch I was trying to come up with a parallel. I thought I couldn't just compare Perl to markdown, lol 23:14
But maybe I could compare it to git, for example 23:15
Nothing revolutionary is to be expected from git in the near future, I'm inclined to say "future" overall 23:16
drakonis the evolution of perl or lack thereof is entirely dictated by a small in-group
git has steadily developed some nice improvements 23:17
leont The evolution of perl is entirely dictated by the unusual breadth of its application
drakonis is it? 23:18
couldnt the same be said of other languages?
leont I don't think anything else quite tries to cover anything from one-liners to multi-million liners.
Nemokosch But if there will be better or at least more hip 'n' cool choices in 20 years, git never will regain popularity
rjbs drakonis: In what way does this in-group dictate its evolution?
drakonis p5p 23:19
leont Perl isn't a language, it's a sprachbund. The way people write awk-replacement perl is so vastly different from the way people write web-application perl that it's really a different language that just happens to run on the same interpreter. 23:20
Nemokosch There is PHP, there is even Python if you will
rjbs drakonis: That's not much of an answer.
drakonis i'm writing it
Nemokosch I can't confidently state that PHP is the positive counterpart of language development but it's definitely a whole different attempt and I think it's more successful for the given goal 23:21
leont Keeping both groups happy is exceedingly difficult. Raku made the decision not to try to be an awk-replacement on top of being a general purpose programming language, and that makes its life infinitely easier
Nemokosch especially given the fact that PHP pretty much became infamous as the language with horrible design or the lack thereof xD 23:22
Voldenet raku is valid awk replacement IMO 23:23
drakonis rjbs: perl hasnt really changed in any meaningful way and p5p has attempted to bolt raku features into it, with not much success
Voldenet you can do `raku -ne` for instance
rjbs I don't think p5p has attempt to "bolt raku features into perl5" as such since 2007.
leont Voldenet: but when it has to compromise, it will always choose to optimize for general purpose programming over text-stream editing
Voldenet Ah, of course, that's most sane approach 23:24
Nemokosch actually, I don't know if Raku has any drawbacks to Perl, besides performance in many cases still
rjbs Perl 5 has constraints on how much it can be changed without significantly breaking backward compatibility, and also by the existing single implementation. Also, I don't see how this is an "in-group dictating".
(At least, not any more than any project with a set of committers is.)
Nemokosch or at least not drawbacks that you could pinpoint as "use-case killers" 23:25
> without significantly breaking backward compatibility 23:26
I think we are getting to the point haha
drakonis yes
Nemokosch I'm no expert in this area but my gut feeling is that the supposed Perl5 to Perl6 change was WAAAAY bigger than, say, the Python2 to Python3 change 23:27
drakonis now, that's exactly the issue, it is limited by a combination of technical limitations and backwards compat
rjbs Yes. That is absolutely the truth.
Nemokosch and when I look at the Perl topics, I think I know the reason
drakonis raku has liberated itself from these issues 23:28
which is truly excellent
Nemokosch There was just way more things worth fixing in Perl5 than in Python2
rjbs Here is my point: Perl is not "absolutely finished". It has significant constraints on its possible evolutions. Perl is not "dictated by a small in-group". It has a development team and is answerable to an installed base.
Many languages can be successful within their own constraints, which may be large or small, without having to build their success on painting other languages in an unnecessarily negative light. 23:29
drakonis accurate 23:30
it does happen a lot more often than it needs, which is not at all
leont Ironically (given my opinions in perl-land), I have sometimes felt like Raku was a little too careful with breaking things. Like, it's easy to do that before success, but much harder to do later.
drakonis it broke enough to enable the ability to change itself 23:31
Voldenet you could always make raku2 and rename it into something else ;)
drakonis a grandiose plan :) 23:32
Nemokosch There are things I find like "zero-day" design mistakes in Raku, most are sigil-related... 23:33
drakonis i wonder how many of these could go away and nobody would care
besides having to update all of the documented code of course 23:34
Nemokosch but like... what is a dirty hack or a dream in Perl is just _basic_ in Raku 23:35
rjbs: call it whatever you wish but still talking about try-catch and signatures in a traditional, predominantly imperative-style language is a deal breaker in 2022 23:37
rjbs What _what_ whatever I wish?
Nemokosch perhaps one can please the oldschool guys with getting that sort of stuff right but it will not attract new users 23:39
If it will, they won't come from proper programming languages but horrible shell implementations
rjbs I never brought up attracting new users.
Nemokosch and for that, frankly it doesn't matter whether there is try-catch and stuff like that
leont Does anyone really know what will attract new users? Serious question. 23:40
Voldenet It's probably hard for perl 5 to compete with raku anyhow 23:41
Nemokosch what would be a measure of moving forward then? 🤔
rjbs Half an hour ago, I said: Perl 5.36 will be slightly more pleasant to work in than 5.34. That seems like enough to me.
drakonis a compelling language for early adopters, a decent amount of libraries for later adopters 23:42
rjbs "compelling
"compelling" is begging the question.
leont I have ideas (and am likely to blog them some time soon actually), but it's a not really a hard science. If only because anything that works will quickly be copied by others
drakonis as in something that is worth learning? 23:43
but that varies from a person to another
Voldenet worth learning? Latin, definitely
Nemokosch > Perl 5.36 will be slightly more pleasant to work in than 5.34. That seems like enough to me.
Well I guess we could figure out where to settle that goalpost
rjbs I mean that if Leon says "what makes new users want to learn something" the answer can't be "features that they find compelling". :)
Nemokosch ~~Latin-1~~
Voldenet …I have some perl 5 scripts in use, not massive but somewhat maintained and I'd like signatures in perl5 23:45
Nemokosch Because I can buy the idea that Perl 5.36 is essentially unnecessary but also the idea that it doesn't change the big picture and feels more like a patch than a kind of upgrade
how do these two things add up?
because you cleverly avoided connecting the two statements 🙂 23:46
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drakonis this conversation has gone places, hasnt it 23:48
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Nemokosch by the way, for signatures... I for one don't think the lack of function signatures would be a terrible loss, theoretically. However, there are certain mainstream expectations to match. I feel that the lack of function signatures is like 20% bothersome and 80% just "uncool" 23:49
Voldenet but that 20% is enough to make it an improvement 23:50
imho there's always room to improve languages, even if new versions aren't introducing anything exciting 23:51
Nemokosch I mean yes, definitely
leont Same with try/catch really. It doesn't enable anything that wasn't possible before, but it makes it more accessible.
Nemokosch and getting away from an "uncool" stigma is also more than enough, honestly
It's more that supposedly fundamental stuff like this is going so slowly - because breaking compatibility is very much a taboo - that it really takes dedication to feel the improvement 23:54
like you know, it's pretty hard to get that intense air draft of a Cadillac cabriolet if you are sitting on a... camel 23:55
most people won't be like "wooohoo, here we go baby" 23:57
rjbs The target audience is perl5 programmers who plan to upgrade. You don't think they're likely to be excited by the changes in v5.36.0? 23:59
Voldenet perl5 is not a camel, it's more of a car where you control speed with hands and turn with your feet
it works, but it's sort of weird

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