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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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Nemokosch I've been thinking about a first language Raku tutorial. Perhaps it shouldn't be as variable-centric as I would do in most mainstream imperative languages 08:12
iirc gfldex advocated for a different terminology that seemed to work better 08:15
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El_Che Nemokosch: be careful with terminology because they will look up stuff while learning 10:49
tellable6 El_Che, I'll pass your message to Nemokosch
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Nemokosch Some compromise has to be made if Raku is essentially different from other languages 10:58
And I learned the hard way that Raku symbols don't really fit my concept of variables the way I know variables in Java-like, hidden reference languages 11:00
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tbrowder .tell guifa_: i’m getting close to publishing my new tz-related modules and am thinking about a multi-lang-region version sim to Date::Names. is name Timezones::Universal taken by you? i don’t want to be a squatter 12:42
tellable6 tbrowder, I'll pass your message to guifa_
tbrowder bye for now..
guifa_ tbrowder nope. My multilanguage stuff is all under Intl:: (in this case, Intl::DateTime::Format) 12:43
lizmat ask and you shall receive ... I'll see if I can get it added today once I get moving 12:47
lizmat :-)
guifa_ I've got to update ZoneInfo anyways, there was an update for timezone data, but it's mainly long term future so I hadn't been in a rush 12:48
oh sweet 12:54
Comma now very nicely shows declarator pod for random variables (or at least constants)
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andinus how would raku.land handle a module published by 2 different authors? 13:18
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andinus say "zef:abc" publishes v0.1.0 and "zef:xyz" publishes v0.2.0 13:19
lizmat if you don't specify an auth, it will take the highest version
if the versions tie, it will take the highest api version, afaik 13:20
andinus i see, iirc that is true for zef cli
does it show up as same module on raku.land ?
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lizmat andinus: there's a #raku-land channel :-) 13:21
to answer your question, I don't know without checking
Nemokosch Two modules
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At least with different ecosystems 13:23
That much I know, as the second publisher of HTML::Tag 😛 13:25
andinus lizmat: i see, thanks 13:27
guifa_ lizmat: halp with naming. "timezones-set" sounds to me like it's gonna set a timezone lol, "timezones-map"....well, yeah bad for similar reasons. timezone-list = not accurate, since I'm returning a Set
andinus Nemokosch: ah i see
tellable6 andinus, I'll pass your message to Nemokosch
lizmat timezones-as-Set ? 13:28
guifa_ ^^
andinus in your case the author is same, i guess i'll try doing this sometime later
guifa_ oof so verbose though
lizmat well... how often will you call it in your code?
guifa_ holds up mirror
lizmat if not often, a long name doesn't matter as much and clarity gains 13:29
guifa_ I dunno, how often will you call it lizmat?
lizmat I intended to embed it in App::Rak with a single call :-) so once :-)
*intend
guifa_ weird 13:52
m: sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo;
camelia ( no output )
guifa_ on my end I get Cannot modify an immutable Set (Set())
in block <unit> at /Users/guifa/Applications/github/TimezonesZoneInfo/t/04-sets.t line 4
lizmat why would it? You're initializing a Set with a Set ? 13:53
what version of rakudo are you using ?
guifa_ might be a few months old, haven't devved on this machine in a bit 13:54
oh yeah ha
2021.12.146
clearly it doesn't on here which TOT 13:55
guifa_ . o O ( I think using TOT makes me sound old lol )
lizmat bisectable6: sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo --old=2021-11
bisectable6 lizmat, Will bisect the whole range automagically because no endpoints were provided, hang tight
lizmat bisectable6: --old-2021-11 sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo 13:56
bisectable6 lizmat, ¦6c (65 commits): «4===SORRY!4=== Error while compiling /tmp/RoVsIZ6Bhs␤Undeclared routine:␤ old used at line 1. Did you mean 'ord'?␤␤ «exit code = 1»»
lizmat, Nothing to bisect!
lizmat, Will bisect the whole range automagically because no endpoints were provided, hang tight
lizmat argh
bisectable6: --old=2021-11 sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo
bisectable6 lizmat, Output on all releases: gist.github.com/64cd6c36b47767cdae...65a6fcef1c
lizmat, Nothing to bisect!
lizmat, Will bisect the whole range automagically because no endpoints were provided, hang tight
lizmat wot?
bisectable6: --old=2021.11 sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo
bisectable6 lizmat, Output on all releases: gist.github.com/a7e3c69fb40acf35c1...e9c8fb38b3 13:57
lizmat, Nothing to bisect!
lizmat, Will bisect the whole range automagically because no endpoints were provided, hang tight
lizmat bisectable6: old=2021.11 sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo
bisectable6 lizmat, Output on all releases: gist.github.com/575f16d61d3b8fcaa3...e0368f7669
lizmat, Nothing to bisect!
lizmat, Cannot find revision “2021.11” (did you mean “2021.12”?)
lizmat bisectable6: old=2021.10 sub foo { <a b c>.Set }; my %bar is Set = foo
bisectable6 lizmat, Bisecting by exit code (old=2021.10 new=30a9d3a). Old exit code: 1
lizmat, bisect log: gist.github.com/39c0cd1c9812baeeab...1fccd077d0 13:58
lizmat, (2022-05-27) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/62...bd4d6000eb
lizmat guifa_: indeed, looks like it was fixed *after* the Rakudo version you'r using 13:59
guifa_ gotta do a little bit more testing since I think I found a parse error, but I can probs push this update out tonight / tomorrow 14:10
(like parse issue going back a loooong while)
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Nemokosch Apropos parsing... 15:12
Why does `@foo =:= @foo[]:v` parse as if I were adverbing =:=? 15:13
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lizmat because that's how adverbing was intended to work.. :-) 15:55
I wasn't around when that was discussed but it has had a *lot* of discussion 15:56
note that this is one of the reasons I made :!exists work on Associatives
afk& 15:57
El_Che Nemokosch: what's special about Raku's variables 16:13
tellable6 El_Che, I'll pass your message to Nemokosch
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Nemokosch El_Che: that there are 3 additional sigils that cannot be conceptually mapped to variables of other languages 16:17
and there are separate assignment mechanisms for them, while what I would consider _the assignment_ is called "item assignment" 16:19
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El_Che you mean . and ! ? 16:27
Nemokosch Nope. I don't use much OO in Raku anyway, truth be told 16:28
@, % and one of \ and $, depending the mental framework (I'd say the third one is \ ) 16:29
@, % and one of \ and $, depending on the mental framework (I'd say the third one is \ )
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El_Che so, the same as Perl? 16:44
and &
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Nemokosch & is not really weird imo 16:54
or tbh I never tried because nobody in the right mind would keep mutating a function reference 😂
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El_Che In Perl they talk about containers 17:13
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El_Che but besides that, it's not that weird 17:13
a kind of container typinh
g
Nemokosch I'm not sure how it is in Perl but in Raku, sigils don't really affect the type but the "variable interface" itself (that's what containers are for) 17:15
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El_Che you do of course what do you thing it's best, but I think it will confuse people 17:15
Nemokosch I think containers confuse people already 😅 17:16
El_Che not if they learnt bash first 17:17
Nemokosch 1. I don't think many people "learn Bash first" 17:19
2. Bash (and POSIX shell in general) is like the only language I have ever found absolutely horrible
I would go as far as to say, Perl's existence is justified by the horror POSIX shells are
tonyo if you think the "language" is horrible then you either dont understand the problem they solved or never grew up with cli only computer 17:21
Nemokosch I definitely never grew up with cli only computer 🙂 17:24
But anyway, if shell was just half decent, I wouldn't have started Raku at all 17:25
the Perl family proves that it can be done with actual types, control structures, scopes etc
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tonyo what do you think existed prior to the shell? 17:54
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Nemokosch I'm not sure if this is worth thinking about in 2022. 18:00
And I don't know where we are going with this anyway. If I make a Raku tutorial, I won't aim target shell users of all possible audience, and I gave two reasons why. 18:02
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tonyo it's always worth thinking about why something is the way it is and its merit for what it made simpler because those reasons always come around again, the shell simplified how we interact with computers in a very big way. it was designed to be that type of language, not one with "correctness" or strict-ness, or even types 20:00
Nemokosch I think it's even more worth thinking about what lead to the creation of Perl, Tcl, Python and several other languages, among the number of different shell implementations with ad-hoc additional features (Bash for example striving for a more C-ish look, with better conditionals and loops), and what we think about interacting with a complex system now 20:11
What does bash have to do with containers, by the way? Bash was brought up with regards to Raku containers. 20:12
guifa_ tony-o ugexe I'm getting a "Meta error: "auth" must be zef:" message when uploading with fez, but my auth definitely has "zef:guifa". Any ideas? 20:29
ugexe guifa_: you have fez: 20:30
github.com/alabamenhu/TimezonesZon...A6.json#L2 20:31
tonyo guifa_: it might be using the git bundling - which uses what's in the branch cache and not on disk 20:32
so, if you have it pushed upstream as one thing and locally as another, it'll cause what you're seeing - i'm working on fixing that
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guifa_ ugexe: yeah I fixed that locally, but not up at github. maybe what tonyo has is the issue. just tried again making sure github had the same as locally, crossing fingers 21:05
so far no e-mail back, so think it worked this time 21:06
Geth ecosystem/main: 11a05bf594 | L'Alabameñu++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
Guifa migration part 1 of ?
 21:30
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tonyo guifa_: TZ:ZI 0.3.0? 21:56
guifa_ Yeah. Rakuland seems to be a bit confused -- it's still showing the p6c one, despite me having taking it off of that list 22:04
Ah, here it is raku.land/zef:guifa/Timezones::ZoneInfo
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tbrowder and raku.land’s search window doesn’t work well on my apple devices (ipad, iphone) 23:50
i.e., touch screens 23:58

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