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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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SmokeMachine Does that make sense? 00:22
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SmokeMachine lizmat: about the wrap/assuming issue, assuming does not solve the problem… I need that for a trait_mod to modify a sub… the code I was writing when I needed that is this one: github.com/FCO/Deps/blob/baf1d7e24...akumod#L74 00:50
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Voldenet SmokeMachine: that approach with named dependencies seems ok, but if it was a variable, then it would be more resistant to typos and in the best case wouldn't even require string-hash lookup 08:31
also, there's that case `deps-root { start { … use deps-root } }` deps-root would end before the "start" ends - for only this case some lower level api would be needed probably 08:33
SmokeMachine When passing the deps (I mean on injectable and injected) it also accepts a Deps object instead of a Str… but now you mentioned, I’ll make it (deps, deps-root and deps-scope) to, if :$deps is rw, to store the obj into that variable instead of using that as a name… 08:35
Voldenet the latter problem would probably need some trait like `:dangling` implying that it would be menually cleaned up 08:37
SmokeMachine Yes… the start would be a problem… I was wondering if wrapping start to get the dyn var, put it into a local var, call the original start, create a new dyn var with the content of the local var and call the original block would make sense… but I’m not sure about that… 08:38
Voldenet dyn vars and threading are causing problems sometimes 08:39
it works, but if it doesn't then it's pain to debug
SmokeMachine Yes…
Voldenet Oh, in some cases it's necessary to keep all the scopes around (like when you start websocket connection, store in the CurrentWebsocket and keep all the scopes in one big array)
so that the scopes would be per websocket connection session 08:40
and closing one websocket would send "websocket has disconnected" notification to all others
SmokeMachine Maybe deps should accept a :$use optional arguments that would make use that internally… that way we could: deps-root :deps($root), { start { deps :use($root), { … } } } 08:41
Voldenet you could discard one {} probably 08:42
SmokeMachine Yes… 08:43
Voldenet `deps-root :deps($root), { start deps :use($root), { … } }`
but
SmokeMachine Would that make sense?
Voldenet `deps-root :deps($root), :dangling { start deps :use($root), { … } }`
since otherwise root would cleanup before start used the root 08:44
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SmokeMachine Sorry, what the word dangling means? 08:44
Voldenet it's from `dangling pointer`, but probably not the best word here 08:45
:no-cleanup 08:46
maybe
SmokeMachine Ok, now I got it! :)
Voldenet deps method would basically invoke all the cleanups on the end
unless it was told not to 08:47
SmokeMachine Other thing it could do is that if it returns a Promise, add a then on that to cleanup only when the promise is finished…
(By it I mean the block)
Voldenet ah, that would prevent multiple cleanups 08:48
SmokeMachine (We do something similar with Red on red-do :transaction, { start … } 08:50
(If I still remember it correctly) 08:51
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Voldenet I'm unsure whether multiple cleanups should fail or if child scopes should cleanup when parent is cleaned up 09:03
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Voldenet maybe `try-cleanup` should not fail, `cleanup` should, parent should have children's try-cleanup registered 09:06
or parent could just show warning when any child is not cleaned up, but not clean it up 09:07
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librasteve Hi everyone o/ - I have volunteered to make a prototype new version of the raku.org website - following on from [Coke]'s request for input and feedback, please can you visit github.com/librasteve/raku-org-25-proto and provide your inputs and comments - either raise an issue for discussion, or via a PR if it is more concrete. [You will see that I have tried to get the ball rolling with a strawman ... but happy to adapt 09:11
and work with everyone to get to a concensus on what is needed...] I have set a completely arbitrary deadline of 5 days to complete the (non technical) requirements so that we can keep some momentum.
SmokeMachine librasteve_: sorry, I forgot the release… I just did it now. 09:13
Voldenet: I think I’ll leave the cleanup implementation for a future step… after having a few examples where that’s needed… what do you think? 09:16
Voldenet SmokeMachine: makes sense, in a few days I'll probably extend my examples to incorporate full lifetime for things 09:18
I'll add object pool and some other basics so the "why need cleanup" is more obvious 09:20
and hopefully also test it on the way
SmokeMachine Voldenet: when you do that, please let me know that I’ll convert it to Deps… 09:22
melezhik librasteve_: I skimmed very the requirements.md looks good. Maybe in plus with to mentioned all battery included ecosystem - cro, HARC for web development, Red - database ORM, Sparrow - automation framework - those are just examples, not a pitch )))
So the focus on solutions and ready tools not just language 09:23
SmokeMachine Voldenet: it may be just a toy project… but I’m liking what it’s becoming…
melezhik Quite important from people without huge programming background and CS
Voldenet librasteve: I feel that raku can be written a lot like java, because it has interfaces, inheritance, exceptions - maybe it'd be nice to actually write out an example of various languages and raku side-by-side 09:26
to express how powerful the "multiparadigm" is 09:27
However, imo raku is not very much like javascript 09:29
inheritance and js is completely different, operators also try very hard not to throw exceptions
m: "a" - 1 09:31
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "-" in expression "\"a\" - 1" in sink context (line 1)
Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '<HERE>a' (indicated by <HERE>)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet this is valid code in js and gives proper result - not a number :>
Promises are js-like, but whole async is also entirely different 09:32
SmokeMachine I really think Promises could be MORE js-like… 09:34
Voldenet they actually could 09:37
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Voldenet the biggest difference is that .then will execute the code regardless of Promise state 09:38
m: my $p = Promise.new; $p.then({ say "uh oh" }); $p.vow.break("nope"); await $p 09:39
camelia uh oh
An operation first awaited:
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
nope
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet while in javascript there's `.then` (which comes from jquery's Deferred, so it) and it has two arguments 09:41
s/so it/
because of that, then in java's reactor, ContinueWith in C# and then in raku are actually a mess to deal with 09:42
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Voldenet the simple js code `fetch("thing").then(t => t.json()).then(j => fetch(j.otherThing)).then(x => Math.pow(x, 2)).catch(x => console.error(x));` is an absolute madness to write anywhere else 09:44
if anything, it shows how much closer raku is to java, probably 09:49
SmokeMachine Not only that, but also what then receives, and what it does when the block returns another promise 09:51
But I don’t think Raku is close to Java… but you can write code as if it was… 09:52
librasteve SmokeMachine: thanks! 09:56
all - great to see some constructive ideas - and its always nice to chat - but don't forget to create an issue over on the GH repo so that they can get folded into the prototyping 09:58
(yes I COULD copypasta over there - but then I want the contribution to be clear - and I want to be able to try and consolidate common threads - thus the GH repo ;-) ) 09:59
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Voldenet Huh 10:01
m: my $p = Promise.new; $p.andthen({ say "uh oh" }); $p.vow.break("nope"); await $p
camelia An operation first awaited:
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
nope
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet So apparently it is possible to write that, just it is not documented
I'm standing corrected - `andthen` and `orelse` methods change my views on the usefulness of Promise entirely 10:04
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SmokeMachine m: start({ 42 }).andthen: *.say 10:06
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
start used at line 1. Did you mean 'sort', 'spurt', 'sqrt'?
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SmokeMachine m: start({ 42 }).andthen: &say 10:06
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
start used at line 1. Did you mean 'sqrt', 'spurt', 'sort'?
SmokeMachine m: (start { 42 }).andthen: *.say 10:07
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine m: (start { 42 }).andthen: &say 10:08
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine It does not receive anything???
Voldenet but it does, however promises are always running asynchronously 10:11
librasteve Ok seems like I have caused some confusion - sorry. So I have started a couple of Discussion Issues over at the GH repo to try and help ...
github.com/librasteve/raku-org-25-...o/issues/1 ... Discussion: Mention High Value Modules this has melezhik's comments ... pretty straightforward idea imo... 10:12
SmokeMachine m: await (start { 42 }).andthen: &say
camelia Promise.new(scheduler => ThreadPoolScheduler.new(uncaught_handler => Callable), status => PromiseStatus::Kept)
Voldenet m: await (start { 42 }).andthen: *.result.say # but of course
camelia 42
SmokeMachine Different from js that receives what the previous step returned, it receives the promise itself… 10:14
librasteve github.com/librasteve/raku-org-25-...o/issues/2 Discussion: Comparison Languages to Illustrate Multiparadigm ... this is an empty discussion intended to capture Voldenet remarks - I thought about copying comments over from here, but tbh I am confused about all the concurrency examples ...
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SmokeMachine That may make sense… but I’m just pointing a difference… 10:15
librasteve so dear Voldenet, please can you head over to that Issue and explain your idea briefly there (typically you need ot explain to me like you would a dog or a small child)
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SmokeMachine m: say await (start { 1 }).andthen({ 2 }) 10:16
camelia 2
Voldenet librasteve: the concurrency examples are actually separate hole I accidentally dropped into, sorry
SmokeMachine m: say await (start { 1 }).andthen({ start { 2 } }) 10:17
camelia Promise.new(scheduler => ThreadPoolScheduler.new(uncaught_handler => Callable), status => PromiseStatus::Kept)
SmokeMachine In js it would print 2…
Voldenet in js promises automatically get unwrapped before entering .then
so…
m: say await (start { 1 }).andthen({ start { 2 } }).result.result 10:18
camelia An operation first awaited:
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
Can only specify Awaitable objects to await (got a Int)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet m: say await (start { 1 }).andthen({ start { 2 } }).result
camelia 2
Voldenet right, there's an await
SmokeMachine m: multi aawait(Awaitable $a) { aawait await $a }; multi aawait($a) { $a }; say aawait (start { 1 }).andthen({ start { 2 } }) 10:23
camelia 2
Voldenet librasteve: I've added some example that you might be familiar with :) 10:33
m: multi aawait(Awaitable $a) { aawait await $a }; multi aawait($a) { $a }; say aawait start start start start { 42 } 10:35
camelia 42
Voldenet that's nice
m: await Promise.broken("boo").orelse({ 42 }).then( -> $r { say $r.result }) 10:40
camelia 42
Voldenet Docs attempt for those methods has been made, because I'll forget it if I don't do that asap: github.com/Raku/doc/pull/4584 10:55
SmokeMachine glot.io/snippets/h7sotvz66u 11:04
Voldenet SmokeMachine: it'd be enormously nice if the default implementation did that, in fact andthen and orelse were not documented, so maybe it's possible to sneak these changes 11:06
SmokeMachine Voldenet: I think that would be great! 11:07
Voldenet in fact, in case of `then` it's needed to have the promise to get its state 11:08
SmokeMachine But for andthen, that’s not needed…
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Voldenet I've added that as a comment to `github.com/Raku/doc/pull/4584`, I'll add an issue with this 11:14
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Voldenet SmokeMachine: I've added issue with these two methods github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5892 - feel free to suggest the change about unwrapping the promises recursively - I only propose to do one-level unwrap 11:39
it's possible to maybe add some sort of method like `.unwrap` (are we Rust yet ;>)
SmokeMachine Comment added… what does .unwrap do? 11:44
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Voldenet SmokeMachine: convert Promise<Promise<T>> to Promise<T> 12:25
(though rust unwrap is notoriously used to extract T from `Result<T, E>` or `Option<T>` or panic if it's not possible 12:28
…so if you are sure that the value is there in the context and execution doesn't make sense otherwise, .unwrap() gets used) 12:30
I'm not a big fan of unwrap, but having promise being a result of andthen is rare 12:39
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SmokeMachine I don’t think that’s rare… I would say I do that in most of my já code… 12:55
s/já/js/
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Voldenet eh 13:40
it's not that rare in js, but I wonder how necessary is that in raku 13:47
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Voldenet m: sub foo { await Promise.in(1); $^n + 1 }; say await gather for ^20 { take Promise.kept($_).then({ my $f = foo(.result); say .result; $f }) } 13:51
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Voldenet this is async yet not
it's weird because you can have code that's not inside a promise yet it is async 13:52
and it's normal, full async
the continuation in js is run synchronously and the piece of code can't suspend in the middle 13:55
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[Coke] www.reddit.com/r/rakulang/comments...requested/ 19:29
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librasteve [Coke]: thanks for the cross post! 19:40
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Voldenet btw, I thought about promises a bit and I think .await callable on promise could be useful 21:53
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Voldenet m: Promise.kept("3").&await.say 21:56
camelia 3
Voldenet this is already doable, but plain await would've been less magical 21:57
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Voldenet m: await(Promise.kept("3")).say # the same method with plain await sub 22:07
camelia 3
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