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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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[Coke] .seen util 02:12
tellable6 [Coke], I saw util 2024-04-16T20:36:58Z in #raku: <Util> Summary: (1) we want more Raku talks. (2) Rakudo internals qualifies for the Science track (paper or poster). Thanks!
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: slavenskoj assigned to codesections Issue Towards an AI-powered Raku github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/481 12:17
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: lizmat unassigned from codesections Issue Towards an AI-powered Raku github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/481 12:30
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ugexe I suspect they’ve never had to review code generated by ai at any real level 13:22
Nor have they had to review ai code reviews at any real level 13:23
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ugexe I have and it is one of the biggest issues I deal with because it is impossible to properly review mass amounts of code berated by someone with little understanding of the workings directing an ai 13:24
It might even be the single biggest issue I deal with as an engineering manager 13:25
s/berated/generated/ 13:27
The main problem here being the magnitude of output 13:33
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lizmat ugexe: mind if I add these comments to the issue ? 14:01
specifically irclogs.raku.org/raku/gist.html?,2...6-27Z13:33 14:05
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SmokeMachine What is “the xz incident”? Sorry if I shouldn’t be asking that… 14:50
Voldenet en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor 14:52
AI-generated docs are mostly ok, a lot better than no docs at all 14:55
they should only contain info about being automatically generated
SmokeMachine Voldenet: thanks 14:56
Voldenet iirc AI-written tests (both white and blackbox) are often not testing what they should 14:57
whitebox often test behaviors that are not guaranteed, blackbox skip testing important things 14:58
so these tests can become truly evil, because they give false sense of safety net, but the net isn't attached to anything solid 15:01
or rather, AI needs to be instructed on what has to be tested 15:02
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melezhik o/ 15:30
Anyone has an experience calling Raku from c++ ? 15:31
lizmat eh... perhaps Perl's Inline::Perl6 module could serve as inspiration (although that may have bitrotted significantly) 15:32
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melezhik Thanks Liz. I thought maybe someone has already something with that regards . Maybe I will go with just “spawn Rakudo process” way , extremely inefficient but probably ok for my purposes … 15:35
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disbot3 <apogee> What's best practice for shipping a module with a C FFI dependency? 15:51
lizmat ugexe may have some ideas about that 15:54
disbot3 <apogee> I'm writing a wrapper for Tokenizers 15:56
<apogee> Then probably onnx
<apogee> Oh hm onnx has one 15:57
<apogee> Thats good
<apogee> ⚠️ Important: Due to a bug in Raku's module precompilation system when using NativeCall with function pointers, the bindings cannot be packaged as a traditional Raku module. Instead, use the standalone scripts provided. Oh 😄 15:58
lizmat is that still true ?
disbot3 <apogee> Not sure, it's on the ONNX::Runtime readme
<apogee> Looks like it was 11 days ago. 15:59
lizmat aah... well, there's no reference to any issue afaics 16:00
ah, yes, AI generated module
disbot3 <apogee> So probably not a Raku issue? 16:01
lizmat well, what can I say: If the AI, or its manager, doesn't report problems, we cannot fix them
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disbot3 <apogee> I'll try to confirm the issue later & report if I can with a minimum reproduction example. 16:19
lizmat apogee fwiw I did github.com/slavenskoj/raku-onnx-bi...s/issues/1 16:21
disbot3 <apogee> Nice, if they don't reply I'll try to reproduce the issue. 16:26
<apogee> I've been meaning to take a look at the Rakudo sources
<apogee> And MoarVM
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disbot3 <apogee> I want to optimize that Simplex implementation and it's hard without seeing how the bytecode gets compiled/optimized and run. 16:29
<apogee> I'd imagine using native types would help 16:30
lizmat yes, as I suggested yesterday ?
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah
<apogee> I just need to get it done 😄
<apogee> Your help is much appeciated. I did some of the low hanging fruit stuff but it was so hot yesterday I ended up falling asleep before getting back to it. 16:31
lizmat heh.. upper 90s (35C) expected here for next Tue/We 16:32
d
disbot3 <apogee> But it'll be nice to be able to understand the whole stack, what happens under the hood etc. C is very comfortable for me, I'm new to Raku.
lizmat well, C questions will be mostly answerable by people on #moarvm 16:33
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah it's not quite that hot here but I live on a boat and no AC. 😄
<apogee> 80 right now at 5.30pm
[Coke] we just spent 2 days in the car with it 95-100F outside.
[Coke] melts at the thought of no ac
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah I'll hop on IRC over the weekend
<apogee> Yeah here in the UK heat tends to be a passing thing
<apogee> There's no space on the boat for a proper AC unit, could probably get a caravan unit on 16:34
<apogee> But those are pricy.
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[Coke] I used to be OK with no AC, but then I spent 1.5 years in Houston, Texas, and was spoiled for it. 16:37
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah I spent a couple of years in Florida and also got spoiled on it.
[Coke] Nearly everything was AC'd all year, and I don't want to go through the withdrawal. 16:38
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah was similar in Tampa 16:40
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SmokeMachine ab5tract: I must be doing something wrong... usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/.../image.png 16:47
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SmokeMachine ab5tract: if I did not misundtood it, it should print 42, no? 16:50
[Coke] You want .result.say 16:56
otherwise you're saying the promise itself, not the result of the promise
m: await Promise.kept(42).andthen: { .result.say } 16:57
camelia 42
ab5tract SmokeMachine: you need to `use v6.e.PREVIEW` 16:58
or `use 6.*`
SmokeMachine oh! of course, sorry!
[Coke] ? that doesn't seem to change the result of the .say, does it? 16:59
ab5tract ]Cok
[Coke]: R#5917 and R#5892
linkable6 R#5917 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/5917 New andthen/orelse for 6.e
R#5892 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5892 Promise.andthen and Promise.orelse could provide the .result or .cause directly.
SmokeMachine now it's working! sorry ignoring that was guarded for v6.e... 17:00
ab5tract your thoughts appreciated on those tickets
SmokeMachine: no worries!
[Coke] as long as it's guarded, no issues here. 17:01
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[Coke] m: use v6.e.PREVIEW; await Promise.kept(42).andthen: { .say } 17:01
camelia Promise.new(scheduler => ThreadPoolScheduler.new(uncaught_handler => Callable), status => PromiseStatus::Kept)
[Coke] Just checking, is that change only in a branch right now? (or PR?) 17:02
SmokeMachine usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/.../image.png
ab5tract indeed. it's SmokeMachine's job now to try and break it :) 17:03
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ab5tract [Coke]: note the third example in that screenshot is the one I'd most like feedback on. The branch currently implements as JS does, where the promise result is awaited if Awaitable 17:04
er, if the result of the andthen block is a promise it is awaited if Awaitable, sorry
I'm back and forth on whether that's too much action at a distance or not.. but today I'm leaning towards it being the better semantics 17:05
SmokeMachine I like very much using that with JS... 17:06
ab5tract yeah I've warmed up to it. And it fits the name "andthen" (also "orelse") in that I can understand why a user would expect it to be blocking 17:08
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[Coke] I like usability 17:09
As long as it's not too... fiddly? 17:10
This feedback probably not entirely useful. :)
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ab5tract you've more or less described my position, so.. :) 17:10
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ab5tract So if someone really wanted/needed the promise "itself", I believe a `start { start { ... } }` would do it 17:11
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SmokeMachine or use `then` instead of andthen/orelse... 17:14
ab5tract even better! 17:15
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SmokeMachine should infix andthen/orelse work as the methods? 17:18
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Voldenet ab5tract: very nice addition - but consider using `$!result` in orelse too 17:38
instead of self
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Voldenet also, maybe consider `sub try-await($value) { nqp::istype($value, Awaitable) ?? …` 17:40
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Voldenet so then it can become `try-await code($!result)` 17:41
fwiw my attempt, it also has failing test 0x0.st/8l0Y.raku 17:42
because I didn't build try-await yet 17:43
one thing I find not nice about it is that it doesn't strictly behave like await 17:44
m: use nqp; say await [Promise.kept(1), Promise.kept(2)]; say nqp::istype([Promise.kept(1), Promise.kept(2)], Awaitable) # array with Awaitable gets awaited, but is not Awaitable directly 17:45
camelia (1 2)
0
[Coke] Do we want to have REA modules as part of the standard blin test? 17:47
ww
SmokeMachine I have used something similar (but opposite) in a project... something like: `multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await($a) { $a }`
Voldenet so instead… 17:48
SmokeMachine (it could also have a Positional candidate... but I didn't need that at time...) 17:49
(maybe the returning Awaitable from andthen/orelse could be on await instead of on those modules... that way it would work for "everuthing"...) 17:51
Voldenet m: my $x = [Promise.kept(1)]; say nqp::istype($x, Awaitable) || nqp::istype($x, Any) && nqp::istype($x.are, Awaitable) 17:52
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Could not find nqp::istype, did you forget 'use nqp;' ?
at <tmp>:1
------> kept(1)]; say nqp::istype($x, Awaitable)<HERE> || nqp::istype($x, Any) && nqp::istype(
Voldenet m: use nqp; my $x = [Promise.kept(1)]; say nqp::istype($x, Awaitable) || nqp::istype($x, Any) && nqp::istype($x.are, Awaitable)
camelia 1
Voldenet However, await-all variant needs to be called for Array of Awaitable 17:53
m: use nqp; my $x = [Promise.kept(1)]; say nqp::istype($x, Awaitable) || nqp::istype($x, Any) && $x.are(Awaitable)
camelia True
Voldenet right, this works as well
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melezhik . 17:55
SmokeMachine glot.io/snippets/h8ozutcapu
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SmokeMachine Voldenet: but does that all need to be Awaitable? couldn't it be a single value inside that array? 17:57
Voldenet yes, all value arrays need to be awaitable 17:58
erm
all array values
m: await [Promise.kept(1), 42]; # or this happens 17:59
camelia An operation first awaited:
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
Can only specify Awaitable objects to await (got a Int)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
SmokeMachine but why? shouldn't be possible to await a single value inside an array?
(as the code on my link example) 18:01
usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/.../image.png 18:04
Voldenet SmokeMachine: single value inside an array doesn't need to be awaited 18:10
SmokeMachine why not?
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Voldenet SmokeMachine: …well, they are resolved already, aren't they 18:19
though maybe I'm too fixated on how `await` currently works
SmokeMachine not that awaitable one...
[Coke] japhb, patrickb: github.com/Raku/Blin/blob/coke/cle...al.rakumod 18:21
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ab5tract Voldenet: I interpreted that the request for orelse was to have the cause, so not sure what you mean 18:33
orelse by its nature doesn't have a value for $!result? 18:34
jdv does Text::Diff::Sift4 test clean for anyone? 18:35
i get fail on head and 2025.03
Voldenet ab5tract: well `.cause` is using `$!result` directly, I added github comment that should add more clarity 18:36
I'm assuming that .andthen and .orelse should use the lowest level possible, so they can avoid pointless overhead 18:37
otherwise they could be implemented in `.then` in saner way:
[Coke] Uho, the essentials is bisecting PDF? 18:38
ab5tract I don't really understand your comment, sorry 18:39
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Voldenet ab5tract: if `$!status == Broken`, then `my \final-result := code(self.cause);` can become `my \final-result := code($!result);` 18:40
ab5tract on the one hand you want to avoid overhead with self.cause (which does more than just $!result, it has conditional logic in it)
on the other hand you are suggesting to wrap $*AWAITER.await, and I can't see a reason for that 18:41
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Voldenet ab5tract: `await $x` can also operate on Array of Awaitables, which is… debatable, but to maintain the consistency I this should be supported in andthen/orelse 18:42
ab5tract Can you give an example as to how an array of awaitables can be supplied to andthen/orelse? 18:44
ah, sorry, you mean as a result of the block
Voldenet m: say await await Promise.kept(5).andthen( $p -> { [Promise.kept($p.result)] })
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$p' is not declared. Perhaps you forgot a 'sub' if this was
intended to be part of a signature?
at <tmp>:1
------> ay await await Promise.kept(5).andthen( <HERE>$p -> { [Promise.kept($p.result…
Voldenet m: say await await Promise.kept(5).andthen( -> $p { [Promise.kept($p.result)] }) 18:45
camelia (5)
jdv [Coke]: so SmokeMachine can run that module's test clean on "some linux"?
Voldenet it's more obvious when you do things like this:
[Coke] jdv: ?
.seen masterduke17 18:46
tellable6 [Coke], I saw masterduke17 2025-06-20T20:26:50Z in #raku-dev: <MasterDuke> Undeclared routine: evo used at line 1`
jdv ok, you mean verified the failures?
Voldenet $db.getUser(login => "test").andthen(-> $user { [$db.getProfile($user.id), $db.getAvatarUrl($user.id)] }) 18:47
[Coke] jdv: ?
Voldenet or $db.get-user(login => "test").andthen(-> $user { [$db.get-profile($user.id), $db.get-avatar-url($user.id)] })
ab5tract I don't know. That just makes me start flipping back to thinking it is more appropriate for the user to manager their own awaits
SmokeMachine jdv: I do not have "some linux" here... 18:48
that would be the equivalent to return a Promise.all-of, right? 18:49
jdv SmokeMachine: ok. but you can reproduce the test failures? 18:50
Voldenet ab5tract: perhaps so, in fact in most languages `await` only handles single awaitable and for arrays there are more obvious helpers `Promise.all-kept`, `Promise.all-broken`, `Promise.all` etc.
(`all` is unfortunate naming)
SmokeMachine I'm start thinking that the "recursive" await should be on await (or a new &recursive-await) instead of on andthen/orelse... and it's easy enough to just instead of `return returns-promise()` to `return await returns-promise()`... 18:53
Voldenet yes, but await is a method 18:56
e
m: say await Promise.kept(Promise.kept(2)).andthen(await *.result) # nope
camelia An operation first awaited:
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
Can only specify Awaitable objects to await (got a WhateverCode)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet m: say await Promise.kept(Promise.kept(2)).andthen(*.result.&await) # uh 18:57
camelia 2
SmokeMachine m: multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await(@a) { @a.map: { my-await $_ } }; multi my-await($a) { $a }; say my-await Promise.kept(Promise.kept(2)).andthen(await *.result) 18:59
camelia An operation first awaited:
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
Can only specify Awaitable objects to await (got a WhateverCode)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
SmokeMachine m: multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await(@a) { @a.map: { my-await $_ } }; multi my-await($a) { $a }; say my-await Promise.kept(Promise.kept(2)).andthen(*.result) 19:00
camelia 2
SmokeMachine Voldenet: ^^
Voldenet m: multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await(@a) { @a.map: { my-await $_ } }; multi my-await($a) { $a }; say my-await Promise.kept([Promise.broken(1), Promise.in(5)]).andthen(*.result); say now - BEGIN now 19:01
camelia An operation first awaited:
in sub my-await at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
1
in sub my-await at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet m: multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await(@a) { @a.map: { my-await $_ } }; multi my-await($a) { $a }; say my-await Promise.kept([Promise.broken(1), Promise.in(5)]).andthen(*.result).orelse( -> $p { 5 }); say now - BEGIN now
camelia An operation first awaited:
in sub my-await at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
1
in sub my-await at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet a very long line this becomes 19:02
anyway, if you just do `map`, you will not await for all the results if the first dies
[Coke] anyone know of an irc channel for cpantesters? 19:04
Voldenet `my $file = open("x"); recursive-await Promise.kept(2).andthen( $p -> { [Promise.broken("foo"), start { $file.write("got $p"); }] }); $file.close` # if you don't await all the results, this might fail somehow, because the file is closed 19:06
so instead Promise.allof would have to be used, but it only handles array of awaitables :(
SmokeMachine but if the first dies, it it does m: multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await(@a) { @a.map: { my-await $_ } }; multi my-await($a) { $a }; say my-await Promise.kept([Promise.broken(1), Promise.in(5)]).andthen(*.result).orelse( -> $p { 5 }).andthen: {"1"}; say now - BEGIN now 19:07
m: multi my-await(Awaitable $a) { my-await await $a }; multi my-await(@a) { @a.map: { my-await $_ } }; multi my-await($a) { $a }; say my-await Promise.kept([Promise.broken(1), Promise.in(5)]).andthen(*.result).orelse( -> $p { 5 }).andthen: {"1"}; say now - BEGIN now
camelia 1
0.060420252
Voldenet it should finish after 5 seconds
[Coke] (cpantesters) never mind, got what I needed. 19:09
SmokeMachine I was going to write that the it would not wait for the other promise... 19:11
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Voldenet m: sub my-await($a) { my @n = $a.map: { $_ ~~ Awaitable ?? $_ !! Promise.kept($_) }; await Promise.allof(@n); await @n }; say await Promise.kept([Promise.broken(1), Promise.in(2)]).andthen({ my-await .result }).orelse( -> $p { say $p.cause; 5 }); say now - BEGIN now 19:24
camelia An operation first awaited:
in sub my-await at <tmp> line 1
in block at <tmp> line 1

Died with the exception:
1
in sub my-await at <tmp> line 1
in block at <tmp> line 1

5
2.062931677
SmokeMachine Voldenet: why should it wait 5 secs?
m: m: try await Promise.broken(1), Promise.in: 5; say now - BEGIN now
camelia 0.040709131
Voldenet SmokeMachine: when you run multiple async operations, they run independently - some operations could fail, some operations could succeed - after awaiting you close resources used for the operations 19:25
…otherwise, promise is never awaited, it's running in the background with nothing ever awaiting it, so the program could even close in the middle of it 19:26
SmokeMachine but it seems await breaks fast... as shown on my lass piece of code...
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Voldenet yeah, it seems that `await(@)` is `await Promise.anyof(@)` actually, it's a choice 19:27
SmokeMachine (I think that makes sense...) 19:28
I think I'll create a recursive-await module... 19:31
Voldenet in fact, what I think that when working on arrays of promises, there's no shorthand for `await for all promises, then continue with results if none of them failed` 19:39
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ab5tract so do I hear two votes in favor of leaving auto-await out of andthen/orelse? 19:53
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guifa Does anyone know what happened to the old P6 exegesis docs? 20:24
Working on a history of presentation for the conference this weekend and I can't seem to find them anymore
[Coke] guifa: good question. 20:32
the syn are at github.com/Raku/old-design-docs
jdv web.archive.org/web/20221219205436....raku.org/
is the best i can do
guifa jdv: thanks! 20:33
grrr
[Coke] www.perl.com/authors/damian-conway/ looks like it has a bunch of them still 20:34
guifa ah actually it was apoca that I needed but jdv's link worked
jdv which is here?: github.com/Raku/raku.org/tree/main...design/exe
so github.com/Raku/raku.org/tree/main...design/apo 20:35
guifa hrm I think I ended up on a different github
jdv what a twisty maze of yesteryear
[Coke] mmm
guifa I'm going to be starting from Perl v0 up through MooseX::Declare to Perl 6 to Raku to Corinna (aka "you didn't want a good thing then, but apparently now you do lol") 20:38
jdv nice 20:41
guifa except ruth pushed my talk from Sunday to Saturday and it was at 0% written as of about an hour ago :) 20:42
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guifa codesections got sick and couldn't make it :-( 20:42
Voldenet ab5tract: not entirely – basic await is a good idea, but `await []` is not that useful 20:43
[Coke] guifa - thanks for stepping up!
ab5tract ok
[Coke] I'll give you a drink ticket if that helps. :) 20:44
guifa hahahaha
honestly getting it done for tomorrow means I can enjoy Saturday night more fully
also sounds like I'm going to be put on a call with damian to get more deets on the history side. now I'm really wishing i had more time to write this talk
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Voldenet around the topic of await - `multi await(*@ --> Array)` says `Waits until one or more promises are I<all> fulfilled, and then returns their 20:47
...values`
My question is: what does `fullfilled` in the context mean and is the behavior of broken promise in that array specified in roast? 20:49
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Voldenet `Waits until one or more promises are kept or until first promise is broken` would be more reality-aligned 20:50
ab5tract we could adjust the behavior in 6.e to align with the docs :) 20:51
Voldenet what I mean: 20:52
m: { CATCH { default { }}; say await [Promise.broken(0), Promise.in(1)] }; say now - BEGIN now # this breaks early
camelia 0.042674309
ab5tract Ah, I missed the ambiguity in the docs there ("one or more") 20:53
paired with "are all"
Voldenet github.com/Raku/roast/blob/master/...ng-await.t -- this specifies breaking on the first promise, but doesn't specify that all of them have to be completed
ab5tract I honestly feel like it should have always been `allof` and not `anyof` 20:54
but I guess we have methods on Promise for that .. 20:55
Voldenet it's kind of anyof
anyof has other problem -- it gives you "True"
erm, allof
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Voldenet m: { CATCH { default { }}; my @x = [Promise.broken(0), Promise.in(1)]; say await Promise.allof(@x); say await @x }; say now - BEGIN now # typical usage of anyof :( 20:56
camelia True
1.032650659
SmokeMachine Is the event happening tomorrow? Is it going to be recorded? 20:57
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tbrowder hi, i’m back trying to use multi sub MAINs instead of trying to roll my own. is there some way to define a set of default values of named options so they are auto-included with selected multi MAIN subs? 21:21
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SmokeMachine m: multi MAIN(:$bla = "something default") { say $bla } # tbrowder something like this? 21:38
camelia something default
jdv why do we still get "Merging GLOBAL symbols failed: duplicate definition" errors these days? 21:42
i thought lexically scoping is cleaner now 21:43
i think its because 2 versions of the same module are being used
lizmat: github.com/lizmat/IRC-Client/issues/66 is not resolved methinks
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tbrowder SmokeMachine: no, thanks, not exactly. when i get a chance, i’ll provide a gist expanding on my question. 22:13
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lizmat jdv: zef install IRC::Client is clean for me? 23:15
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lizmat anyways, too tired to look at now, first sleep& 23:16
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Voldenet SmokeMachine, ab5tract: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5919 - relevant to andthen and orelse - thoughts? 23:56

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