🦋 Welcome to the MAIN() IRC channel of the Raku Programming Language (raku.org). This channel is logged for the purpose of keeping a history about its development | evalbot usage: 'm: say 3;' or /msg camelia m: ... | Log inspection is getting closer to beta. If you're a beginner, you can also check out the #raku-beginner channel!
Set by lizmat on 25 August 2021.
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drakonis raku needs a nicer editor/repl experience 00:58
as well as making it a bit more usable to non unix platforms 00:59
SmokeMachine melezhik: thanks! I’ll give a try this weekend! About the error, I’ve fixed that on my last tests and forgot to do the same on the others. Thank you very much! 01:05
.tell melezhik thanks! I’ll give a try this weekend! About the error, I’ve fixed that on my last tests and forgot to do the same on the others. Thank you very much! 01:07
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jdv drakonis: what would that mean? 02:43
drakonis which one?
jdv all of it
drakonis ah, okay.
jdv there is a repl. i don't use repls so i don't understand that part so you could skip that if you wish. 02:44
the editor and non-unix bits though - not sure what you mean
drakonis so, the repl experience is bare right now, you can only send in lines of code and get the returned output, improving it would entail adding a lot more interactivity 02:45
maybe copying CL's repl experience would be nice? 02:46
the editor experience is quite poor if you're not using comma
emacs/vim is still quite non existent at the moment 02:47
as for non-unix platforms, windows support seems... middling, really?
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drakonis i've been using raku on linux, except that one time i tried to run it on windows while away from my main computer 02:48
jdv so by editor you mean "ide", ok 02:51
i use vim and it works just fine, for me 02:52
i don't use windows myself but i think its kept up. anything specific there?
in any case, improving all sorts of stuff would be nice but there's only so many peeps working on stuff:( 02:55
drakonis indeed. 02:56
lots and lots of room for improvement
but is mainly about improving the baseline
nothing specific about windows though 02:58
jdv iirc the vim syntax thing used to be really slow and not otherwise great 02:59
but i think its fine these days 03:00
i think there's people that reguarly use raku on windows so pretty sure it "works mostly":) 03:01
drakonis i see.
good to know.
jdv github.com/Raku/vim-raku is the vim stuff 03:06
and i think more recent versions of vim have more recent versions of that 03:07
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elcaro vim sytax highlighting is a little slow, but I only really notice it if I'm holding down 'u' to do a whole bunch of undo's. other than that I find it fine 04:21
If you use an undo-tree like plugin, then there's probably little to cause you to notice much slowness. 04:22
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_9pfs m: say 3; 04:40
camelia 3
_9pfs m: say 3;say 3;say 3;say 3;say 3;say 3; 04:41
camelia 3
_9pfs m: help
evalable6 _9pfs, Like this: evalable6: say ‘hello’; say ‘world’ # See wiki for more examples: github.com/Raku/whateverable/wiki/Evalable
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
help used at line 1
_9pfs m: say 'hi'; say 'lol' 04:42
camelia hi
_9pfs m: say 'How are you? I like this"
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unable to parse expression in single quotes; couldn't find final "'" (corresponding starter was at line 1)
at <tmp>:1
------> say 'How are you? I like this"⏏<EOL>
expecting any of:
_9pfs m: say "How are you? I like this"
camelia How are you? I like this
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moon-child I frequently find vim slows to a crawl when editing anything nontrivial 04:50
_9pfs moon-child: Use nano 04:55
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corwin twitter.com/UnixToolTip/status/685...C42pvj5sTQ 06:58
bah, sorry for the lazy paste 06:59
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Nemokosch the sad truth is, nobody uses Emacs anymore 07:08
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Geth ecosystem: 3a45498bc9 | (Lucien Grondin)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
add Base58 to ecosystem

see github.com/grondilu/base58-raku.git
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corwin Perhaps largely due to packages like org-mode (MD like syntax that supports literate programming) and Magit (a git porcelain) Emacs seems to be enjoying something of an uptick in users. Also, there seem to be over 800 ppl on #emacs. But then, nobody uses IRC these days either. 07:23
grondilu does emacs support Language Server Protocol? That seems nice and Vim does not support it well without plugins. 07:25
corwin there are a couple of different ways of getting LSP support in Emacs, ye 07:26
This seems to be a very frequent topic in #emacs, in fact. I'm not an LSP user so I can't really say much more. 07:27
grondilu LSP could allow for jumping between objects and function definitions, even between different source files. That's something that would be very nice for raku. 07:29
I mean I know there is the comma ide, but I'd like to keep using Vim. 07:30
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Nemokosch it would be very nice... 07:35
corwin Emacs has *lots* of ways to jump around, in and between files. I haven't needed LSP just for that. 07:37
Although nothing I'm doing is all that terribly complicated. I suspect it wouldn't be hard to stump things like `dumb-jump' (which is the main thing I use for this). 07:38
Anyway, end of commercial I guess. But there are at least a few of us still using Emacs was my actual point. 07:39
Nemokosch yes, less than Nano users, lol 07:43
grondilu .o( *fewer* ) 07:44
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SmokeMachine LSP would help a lot while playing with Red… even more if it understands meta methods… 07:50
fitchett corwin: I second that; I also use emacs
emacs has evil-mode which are VIM bindings for emacs 07:51
SmokeMachine: check out wikemacs.org/wiki/Lsp-mode 07:52
Nemokosch I mean cmd.com/blog/vim-or-emacs-the-debate-is-over/ 07:53
SmokeMachine I use nvim… but I’d like a Raku language server… 07:54
Nemokosch let's make a petition for a Raku language server 07:55
this is at least the fourth time I've seen this brought up
SmokeMachine Instead of a petition, why not start writing one? (I think there is one already started…) 07:58
Nemokosch I mean sure, write one 08:00
SmokeMachine chowdera.com/2021/01/20210109101846750D.html
Nemokosch if everyone who has ever asked about a Raku LSP started writing one, there would be an abundance of implementations now 08:02
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Voldenet Vim and emacs are ok, but why not just use actual IDE 08:06
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Nemokosch there can be multiple answers to that if you think about it 08:10
1. you edit text, not just code. using an IDE for random text structures is usually awkward
2. the environment you are working in is too heterogenous to set up IDE's meaningfully
the latter may or may not include when you only have an ssh connection
CIAvash I haven't written a language server, but wouldn't it be easier to do after RakuAST lands? 08:11
because if you only implement a simple language server which uses `raku -c` to show error messages, then `flycheck-raku` already does that. 08:13
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Voldenet Nemokosch#9980: I'm actually using vscode for plaintext and lateχ as well 09:13
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Nemokosch vscode is not an actual IDE 09:16
CIAvash well, emacs/vim + LSP is kinda vscode, isn't it(apart from UI, customization,...)? 🙂 09:22
Voldenet The main difference between emacs/vim and vscode is that the latter was designed as code editor and the former were designed as text editors
truth be told though, vscode is not an actual IDE without extensions 09:29
El_Che I think it's just free as in beer and it does not sucks as electron :) 09:36
Intellij is a lot better for a lot of languages, but it's expensive
Nemokosch I don't like Jetbrains products 09:37
El_Che it gets some getting used to
Nemokosch they are resource ineffective, even compared to Electron
moreover I had too many problems with them 09:38
El_Che no trouble here
Nemokosch non ascii paths and bs like that
the same effort could go into making Eclipse more user friendly 09:39
Voldenet non-ascii paths and spaces in filenames are great way to discover bugs in tools, ishygddt
El_Che nah
eclipse is a no-no
used them all eclipse, netbeans, intellij 09:40
Voldenet idea is best java IDE (and raku IDE with Comma plugin as well), there's nothing close 09:42
El_Che Voldenet: I use intellij mostly for go
but it's good for raku and perl as well 09:43
Nemokosch Eclipse is decent, it works, it's free as in freedom
why ditch it in favor of something that eats your money, your ram and your soul
and then doesn't even work lol
El_Che :)
Voldenet I never needed my soul anyway
El_Che eclipse and intellij date from another time. intellij is close beta testing Fleet, to compete with vscode in the "hey, I am light" market 09:44
soul is overrated
so is funk 09:45
Nemokosch I thought stuff like this was important among the Raku folks
El_Che for short stuff I like vim :) 09:46
dutchie while we're on editors, does anybody have any kakoune config for raku? i've just been pretending it's perl, which is just about ok 09:47
if not maybe i'll try whipping something up over the easter weekend
might be worth asking in #kakoune as well
Nemokosch and when we are talking vim and emacs, it's implied we don't talk time and date 😛
El_Che googling kakoune
Nemokosch same xD
frankly the main reason I use vim over other things is that I need a ridiculously portable legacy editor anyway 09:48
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El_Che it looks like vim 09:49
As it’s also a modal editor, it is somewhat similar to the Vim editor (after which Kakoune was originally inspired).
I see
Nemokosch when you log in to some SunOS 5.8, what editor can you count on? well, there is some implementation of vi surely...
El_Che so. many. memories. 09:50
I started contributing to (Open)CSW because the userspace on Solaris was so poor
grondilu zef does not show me the latest version of a module I've just updated. Yet I did 'zef update'. What may I be missing?
Nemokosch I kinda hope we can get rid of them eventually 09:51
the hardware itself is brutally expensive nowadays
but you know, we need to be able to test systems that have been deployed 20+ years ago
MasterDuke grondilu: you mean you just released a new version of a module, but zef doesn't see the new version is available? depending on what ecosystem, it can take up to an hour iirc for zef to see the update 09:54
El_Che Nemokosch: coming from someone that probably did every sun course, who's stll running Solaris today is a captive. Everyone that could move their stuff to Linux, specially since Oracle took over, already left 09:56
Nemokosch: the audit Oracle did because they needed to reach financial targets where no fun
Nemokosch: meetings with them? Sign a NDA. Give me prices about how much stuff will cose so we can dragt scenarios? nope 09:57
terrible ecosystem
grondilu MasterDuke: noted 10:02
in any case I should be able to use zef to install a module from the local repo, right? 10:09
so that I don't have to wait after a change? 10:10
MasterDuke yep, `zef install .`
grondilu proceeds to do that
MasterDuke or just put the local repo path in a `-I`
grondilu -I would override the zef install? 10:12
MasterDuke yeah
grondilu ok. That can be useful.
Nemokosch you know, railway control systems... that's not something people like to change daily 😄 10:24
and the system was originally Sun only I think 10:25
there are Linux ports by now
it's a mess tbh
even the versioning 10:26
when I asked "okay, so what defines the 4.7 version?" 10:27
and my boss said: "well, the 4.7 runs on Linux"
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El_Che Nemokosch#9980: pretty much the definition of a captive market 10:49
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Geth flycheck-raku: d141782cf1 | (Siavash Askari Nasr)++ | flycheck-raku.el
Detect more and multiple error messages
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corwin ohh, flycheck-raku.el! Nice 15:25
Also, r/emacs seems to have around 60k users while r/vim has closer to 150k. So I suspect the twitter poll of nearly 200 twitter users *might* not be scientific. 15:26
Doom (an Emacs 'starter kit') seems to have some nice configuration for Raku LSP. I don't use Doom, so I really dunno. I wonder if raku-mode could be merged upstream though. That would be nice. 15:29
Finally, RE "the text editor war is over": www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3QF1uAvbk...nel=WardCo 15:31
jast I tested spacemacs for a while but in the end decided I didn't want to re-learn everything else (the scripting API, subtle differences between different types of windows/panels/... etc.) 15:54
so I'm still on vim :)
corwin vim and emacs both have a steep learning cure. spacemacs, doom, and neovim all attempt to reduce that (on the Emacs side) by coming "pre-configured", making them more like vim in that once you have surmounted the initial learning curve you are done. Emacs is more of a commitment to learning continuously as long as you remain a user. 15:57
FTR, I don't agree either vi/vim nor Emacs was originally created to edit text (vs programs). I think both were initially targeting a programming audience some of who's work was expected to be writing plain text. 15:58
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jast oh yeah, absolutely 16:02
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jast however both are still useful for editing text once you've learned some of the tricks 16:04
corwin most definitely. I've been an Emacs user for decades and know very little vim yet I do use it all the time for little edits, like when I'm ssh'ed somewhere and don't want fire up a tramp (Emacs' way to edit files over SSH) session. I'd say both are worth knowing at least a little aboutt. 16:08
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SmokeMachine m: say "\n\t" 17:00
SmokeMachine u: new_line 17:01
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N [Ll] (n)
SmokeMachine, U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E [Ll] (e)
SmokeMachine, 8 characters in total (new_line): gist.github.com/bf6ebd0e717afdc5ac...561111dde9
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SmokeMachine u: ␤ 17:01
unicodable6 SmokeMachine, U+000A <control-000A> [Cc] (control character)
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Xliff \o 17:10
Still having problems with nested braces. This time trying to parse out methods from a class definition.
Example here: tio.run/##fVRLc9owEL77VyyUGdspmFsP...OtsDOoDT5f
Oh lord... crappin tio. 17:11
Try this one: shorturl.at/eqNPX
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drakonis github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nq...als-course is this still accurate? 18:38
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MasterDuke mostly 18:51
there might be some compilation problems, but i believe those would be pretty quick fixes. it might become a bit less accurate after rakuast lands 18:52
drakonis just a bit? 18:53
MasterDuke dunno, i haven't looked at it in detail in a while. i'd suggest asking jnthn over in #moarvm 18:54
drakonis by the way, is there a way to generate a code block? 18:55
or convert a list to a code block? 18:56
MasterDuke i'm not sure what you mean. list of strings? 18:57
drakonis sure
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drakonis a list of subroutine calls even 18:58
i guess what i want edges quite closely to what macros do 18:59
MasterDuke i assume you want something more than `my &code = @strings.join("\n").EVAL`?
drakonis hmm
i'm interested.
MasterDuke ha, well this isn't an area i've spent much time in. masak_ would be good to talk to 19:00
drakonis its mainly for dealing with code generation for my automation framework
MasterDuke they're experimental, but macros currently can do some things 19:01
drakonis plus a touch of file generators
its... kinda grandiose, really. 19:02
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drakonis given that you have more experience than i do with rakudo's internals, it should be viable to implement something like common lisp's restarts when debugging, right? 19:03
its an awesome debugging experience 19:04
MasterDuke well, i don't know cl, so don't know what restarts do to answer 19:05
drakonis afaik rakudo already has it, but it doesnt have the debugger experience 19:06
from what i understand from raku's docs at least.
its largely the debugger that seems to be missing here 19:09
MasterDuke rakudo/moarvm does have a debugger, but it's not 100% polished. probably the best experience is using it in comma 19:11
for that you'd want to talk to timo, i believe he's written almost all of it 19:12
drakonis the nicest thing about it is that it pauses the execution and gives you options on how to handle the error 19:15
you can even modify the environment at the time of execution and restart it with the modified environment 19:17
fun fact: its done using MOP 19:18
[Coke] anyone know how to use a userid with http::useragent? Don't see anything obvious in the docs. 19:20
MasterDuke i've played with racket and clojure, but never cl 19:21
and with those, never a large enough program that i'd need a debugger. i've read about what you can do with a scheme/lisp debugger, but never really experienced it firsthand 19:22
drakonis CL is quite nice if you can get past the warts
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drakonis it is quite quite large and full of footguns though 19:25
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drakonis sadly. 19:28
MasterDuke it seems like a language i think i would/should like, but don't, for no explainable reason, like scala 19:34
drakonis hah. 19:47
scala itself is very impenetrable 19:48
it has oop and imperative programming but everyone only uses the fp side 19:57
pure fp even
Nemokosch Corwin: if you read the whole article you would see it wasn't about "200 twitter votes" 20:16
And like that goes perfectly with my experience. I have only seen old geezers and real stereotypical nerds (more mathematician than your average coder Joe) use Emacs. 20:18
On the other hand, the vi macrocerse is mundane hipster wisdom that everyone in the IT world has heard about 20:19
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Nothing personal here, I also only goof around with vim because vi is everywhere on Unix and _that's what I was shown in the right time_. But there is no missing puzzle piece. This really is over. 20:23
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japhb Nemokosch, what *you* have seen is not all there is; many people have different experiences, viewpoints, and history. Please stop attempting to insult members of the Raku community with generalizations. 20:39
drakonis ah its bridged again. 20:40
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melezhik . 20:47
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Nemokosch japhb, please don't try to read your mind with malice 21:18
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japhb Nemokosch: "I have only seen old geezers and real stereotypical nerds (more mathematician than your average coder Joe) use Emacs." ... "But there is no missing puzzle piece. This really is over." <-- How else should I interpret that? 21:46
If you're talking about the "ignorance" versus "malice" dichotomy, that's why I wrote two sentences, each addressing one of those. 21:48
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Nemokosch What is there to interpret about that? One is literally a factual statement about my experience and I don't see anything bad about the other one according to any interpretation 22:10
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It's quite sad that you manage to get something out of these sentences you need to "interpret". The basic idea deserves more than this so I'm gonna recall it one more time 22:13
emacs vs vi was probably an interesting episode of IT pop culture but nowadays, presenting them as equals only holds for retro memes. This tells nothing about which one is better or which one anyone is ought to use, this is a neutral claim. 22:14
Things just happened to turn in a way that vi and its descendants are what almost all nerdish guys know as "that legendary text editor from the 70's that is really cool for some reason" - while Emacs is something actual hardcores use, probably because they were taught by an old prof, or they are the old profs themselves. 22:18
gfldex is tempted to switch the bridge of 22:20
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corwin There are some interesting use-cases for Emacs discussed here: www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/jj..._workflow/ 22:26
Nemokosch obviously this is not a representative study still but yes, most of the answerers are the way I imagine an Emacs user 😄 math phd or exotic. The lawyer case with LaTeX is interesting though 22:37
but then I could bet my life Donald Knuth also is (or at least was) an Emacs user 22:39
gfldex he does 22:41
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raiph u: butterfly 23:02
unicodable6 raiph, U+1F98B BUTTERFLY [So] (🦋)
Nemokosch [So] 23:06
corwin M-x snow is fun bru.st/i/emacs_PevgkwGB9y.png 23:08
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Xliff Still having problems with nested braces. This time trying to parse out methods from a class definition. 23:16
Example here: shorturl.at/eqNPX
Can someone tell me what I'm missing?
raiph Xliff: When I entered shorturl.at/eqNPX in my browser, it took me to the shorturl.at site asking me what URL I wanted to shorten. 23:22
Xliff: Sorry, I gotta go to sleep. Goodnight and good luck. 23:49
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Xliff Here is a better version 23:55