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🦋 Welcome to the MAIN() IRC channel of the Raku Programming Language (raku.org). Log available at irclogs.raku.org/raku/live.html . If you're a beginner, you can also check out the #raku-beginner channel! Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022. |
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| gfldex | tbrowder: The best way to stop users of your code in general is by good documentation. You can never stop them from using the MOP or decending into NQP-land to mess with your stuff. | 11:21 | |
| tbrowder: If I see `is implementation-detail` I know what not to do. :-> | 11:23 | ||
| tbrowder | yes, i know, i'm just trying to avoid regular users causing trbl | 11:37 | |
| accidentally | |||
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| tbrowder | hm, "is implementaion-detail" a real trait? have to check docs...yes, thnx, that looks a good thing which i obviously have never used! | 12:48 | |
| i will use that trait if i can figure out exactly where to use it. | 12:52 | ||
| gfldex: thanks! | |||
| stiil fighting with my own code... | 12:53 | ||
| [Coke] | I think it was intended for compilers to say "don't assume this this official", but I guess it could be extended for user-written code, aye. | 12:56 | |
| tbrowder | maybe use both... | 13:18 | |
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| [Coke] | "that this is" | 14:00 | |
| jaguart | my raku is from nxadm:rakudo-pkg (thank you!) - when installing raku site modules, should I be 'sudo zef -I' or 'sudo zef-as-root' etc? | 14:34 | |
| or something completely different? | |||
| and is raku and zef installation recommends (eg paths permissions etc) written up in a blog anywhere? | 14:40 | ||
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| jaguart | oh - I've found this: nxadm.github.io/rakudo-pkg/docs/zef.html - which implies that the norm is in the home folder of a user | 15:14 | |
| librasteve | jaguart: I use rakubrew.org - that has the benefit, like pyenv, of managing multiple versions - typically each version has it own zef install (that's a user account install too, afaict) | 15:32 | |
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| El_Che | jaguart: yes, that's how I understand zef/raku flow. But this could be indeed be clarified buy raku (steering) | 15:46 | |
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| jaguart | yeah - it's hard to debug on the filesystem because the compunits are not identifiable by their filenames | 16:16 | |
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| jaguart | there is also some magic around groups I think - my user is a member of raku-zef - and I think this means I install to site by default | 16:21 | |
| at least if I ``zef install Readline`` I had permission problems on these folders until I chmod g+s on the site folder | 16:22 | ||
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| jaguart | I'd be interested if anyone running Raku for devops in Linux production has pointers for install, permissions, keeping modules up-to-date, installing modules etc (site vs user) | 16:56 | |
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| jaguart | or if you containerise everything etc, then your container build and update processes | 16:57 | |
| Did you all watch the Damian on perl multi methods and cleaning up smartmatch? | 17:04 | ||
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| antononcube | Perl, 🤮🤮🤮 | 17:41 | |
| scullucs | You realize there would be no Raku if not for Perl, right? | 17:43 | |
| antononcube | @lucs Yes, long time ago. (And it is pretty obvious, anyway...) | 17:44 | |
| What is interesting, is that the more I use Raku, the less I can tolerate Perl. | 17:45 | ||
| scullucs | I used to work with Perl a lot in the past. I'm really glad "Perl 6" found its way. I couldn't use Perl anymore. Raku fixed so many of its problems and introduced so many fantastic features. | 17:48 | |
| _grenzo | So, hypothetically, if I had access to a time machine and wanted to take raku back in time and "gift" it to the perl community just after the coffe-cup incident what all should be included and how do we give proper attribution to the developers? | 18:02 | |
| antononcube | @_grenzo (LLM generated response to your question.) | 18:32 | |
| cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/633...d7148& | |||
| [Coke] | (attribution) - we answered that question at the time for the Christmas (Koleda) release. | 18:46 | |
| tbrowder | pls remind me of the coffee-cup incident | 19:22 | |
| antononcube | @tbrowder I asked LLM that, and it started applogizing for using a "generic phrase." | 19:24 | |
| tbrowder | not surprised... | 19:30 | |
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| _grenzo | www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.packr.../msg3.html | 20:00 | |
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| I was at the conference (not in the meeting) | 20:11 | ||
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| scullucs | Hey, me too. Wish I'd seen it happen. | 20:27 | |
| [Coke] | web.archive.org/web/20160327034915..._9705.html | 20:31 | |
| (not actual photo from event, pretty sure) | 20:32 | ||
| antononcube | Obviously those artistic rendition of that event are too faithful to what happend: | 20:34 | |
| cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/633...95ce7& | |||
| cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/633...0ca10& | |||
| At least the participants look right! | 20:35 | ||
| _grenzo | Is that milk coming from the cups? 🙂 I don't remember Jon's beard, but we'll go with it. | 20:37 | |
| In fact I think the first image should be canonical. | 20:39 | ||
| antononcube | Well, I gave DALL-E the description you the mail message you linked to. But DALL-E tends to make its images too "crowded", so they look AI-generated. | 20:41 | |
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| librasteve | lol - i count them 14 round the table - very biblical | 22:27 | |
| At first watch I was somewhere between confused (how can a person do all those air miles and not be ashamed) and betrayed (this guy is my hero - he practically made perl6/raku - and now he is busy bringing given / when to perl and undermining the raku project | 22:34 | ||
| some irate comments here ensued | |||
| On second watch, I realised that Damian had been ambushed by some decision in the perl community to drop given/when from perl only a couple of versions after agreeing to include it - and this was Damian’s way to keep the idea alive and to refine it with a more constrained set of smartmatch variants. | 22:37 | ||
| All in all a sad spectacle - my takeaway is that perl is even deader than i thought - hopefully some perl folks will give raku a second look since we have had these goodies all along - and Damian will work from home and apply the improvement to a coming iteration of raku | 22:39 | ||
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| Xliff | I'm trying to port some javascript to raku and I've encounteded a weird expression. " let isWindow = !!source.metaWindow;" | 23:51 | |
| What does the !! mean? | |||
| ab5tract | librasteve: at first watch of what, may I ask? | ||
| Xliff: at a glance my guess is that it’s similar to how it works in Perl | 23:53 | ||
| Xliff | And how does it work in Perl? | ||
| ab5tract | By negating the negation you can avoid some issues around nullity | 23:54 | |
| Xliff | Aw crap. | ||
| OK. | |||
| ab5tract | the full form in Perl is 0+!!($thing) | ||
| Xliff | I didn't think it was going to be that easy. | ||
| So.... .so.not | |||
| Or just .so? | 23:55 | ||
| ab5tract | It’s called the key of truth in perlsecret | ||
| The same as .so / so / ? | 23:56 | ||
| Xliff | ab5stract++ | 23:57 | |
